Los Pibes Lose Again!

By
John
-
48

Argentina Under 20 suffered their second defeat in the Hexagon round, this time to Ecuador 3-0!

Ecuador took the lead before half time with a penalty from Pervis ESTUPINAN and in the second half, Jordy CAICEDO and Bryan CABEZAS sealed the win for the home side.

The result leave Claudio UBEDA’s boys now second from bottom with just 3 points and with the next march against Brazil; things could get even more complicated with regards to qualifying for the Under-20 World Cup to be held in South Korea later this year.

A far cry from what our youth side used to be, sadly!

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48 Comments

  1. I’m all for youngster who are really top level players for their age. Messi won the U20 world cup back in 2005 and was later call up by the Argentina NT. Same goes for the likes of Di Maria, Aguero etc when they won and perform well at youth tournament.

    What we have now are Argentinean young players failing at Youth Championships on a consistent basis, if they can’t compete with the likes of Panama, Honduras, Algeria, Austria, Ecuador, Venezuela etc. at youth level they have no business on the Argentina senior team.

    Joshua Kimmich is a Bayern Munich player, he is involved with either the league title or the UCL. So comparing a young player who is playing at the highest level to some of our own who can’t even control or pass to save themselves is a stretch if you ask me.

    I’m all for young players it’s just the ones being mention here are not ready for prime time.

    You guys just don’t get it, countless failures at FIFA youth championship is not good for the NT in the short term or the long term!! Young Esteban Cambiasso was a youth player for Real Madrid when he won the 1997 FIFA youth championship.

    • I’m willing to bet that even this generation of players would have achieved something given decent coaching which we have been sorely lacking.

      Kid, what’s the alternative? Rojo at left-back? Biglia, Banega and Mascherano midfield? Mercado at right-back? Your favourite Higuian choking on big occasions? Anonymous Aguero? Goalie who is not starting for his club? Martino may have gotten away with all of that but Bauza is no longer able. We need some new solutions.

      Can you think outside of the box for a second?

      • ”Kid, what’s the alternative? Rojo at left-back? Biglia, Banega and Mascherano midfield? Mercado at right-back? Your favorite Higuian choking on big occasions? Anonymous Aguero? Goalie who is not starting for his club? ”

        Well we got to a senior world cup final with them, don’t it? it was Higuan goal and man of the match performance that took Argentina to their first world cup semifinal in over 25 years.

        Romero heroics took Argentina pass Holland during the semifinal at the 2014 world cup.

        Rojo made the world cup team of the tournament.

        Biglia help us to a world cup final when Sabella choose to play him over Gago. Biglia also won the 2005 youth world cup.

        Every player you mention are and was ten times better than the overrated young players you guys keep on mentioning here at the same age. None of these guys can control a football like Banega, Mascherano and Biglia (and here am I defending Biglia of all players).

        The only midfielder I’m interested in right now is Walter Montoya who just sign for Sevilla from Rosario.

        • The question is not what they did in the past, it’s 2017 already, time to move on. I am not so much arguing for a particular young player but rather the change in mindset. And I’m sorry right now, Rojo sucks as a left-back, hence the reversion to his natural position at MU. Even at the World Cup he may have been great defensively but I don’t remember him being particularly good in attack.

          So according to you there is no alternative then. Business as usual, static midfield, no attacking threat from fullbacks, and Messi probably carrying the team. Brilliant.

        • “Well we got to a senior world cup final with them, don’t it?”

          it would be dishonest to say we got to a w/c final because of the way the players played as the reality is we crawled to a world cup final and used every ounce of luck on the way (sadly it run out final day ) but in saying that i would have taken any score to win it, those who are honest would say we did not deserve be to be in the final the way we played over all but again it matters not how you get their (just ask Portugal) its what you do in the final and the tragedy is we were the best team in the final until one coach who had a brain explosion killed us.

          the next 2 copa’s we played some real football only to choke and play crap in 2 finals because of those same players-go figure.

          their is no doubt after 14 w/c the team should have been diesected and new faces brought in but tata had zero idea as does bozo and now we are paying the price.

  2. Being too young should not necessarily preclude a player from getting a call to the national team. Two examples come to mind: Donnaruma from AC Milan who at only 17 already received a call to Italy’s senior side and even played some minutes and Joshua Kimmich who at 20 played as a right-back for Germany during Euro 2016 and that was not even his natural position. What the youngsters lack in experience they sometimes make up with eagerness and desire to succeed. Do not let Kranevitter experience discourage you, besides against Peru it was Bauza’s fault playing Mascherano and Kranevitter together and expecting a good result.

    • enganche: correct and correct.
      as they say if your are good enough you are old enough.

      ive always said we should have some youngsters in the squad just for the experience for these reasons.

      They get a feel of the set up,

      They know the coach is actually looking at them and not the usual lip service we have heard over the years from to many coaches of the n/t.

      It also allows a young player to see 1st hand the whole set up and fellow players and if they keep up the good work and work hardier then a shirt could be theirs.

      It makes the incumbents work hardier to keep their shirt as they know others are their in their face trying to take it from them, the youngsters are in the coaches face, youngsters are in the forefront of the coaches and fellow players mind and these youngsters are eagerly waiting for their chance to grab that shirt.

  3. Is this 1st time when Hernan Toledo is on the bench of Fiorentina? I forgot about him a bit after left Velez but he is one of most talented our youngsters in Europe IMO. Even if he is not talented at all after KidultHood;P

  6. a Spanish paper As reports that Sampaoli has a very low release clause which would allow Barcelona to get him at the end of the season. Sampaoli’s release clause is said to be in the region of € 1.5 million.

    we need this guy urgently as pocc and sim are not going to happen before this w/c.

  7. A few facts about Argentina’s starting goal keepers.
    1974-Daniel Carnevali was the starting goal keeper (except in the last match)
    1978- Fillol was the starting goal keeper (and the best goal keeper of the tournament)
    1982- Fillol
    1986- Nery Pumpido
    1990- Nery Pumpido and Goycochea (Pumpido got injured and ironically Goycochea who was the third goal keeper played the rest of the tournament and became the best goal keeper of the tournament!)
    1994- Goycochea
    1998- Carlos Roa
    2002- Pablo Cavallero
    2006- Abbondanzieri (In the decisive match against Germany, he collided with Klose and had to be subbed by Leo Franco)
    2010- Sergio Romero started all the five matches Argentina played irrespective of his jersey number or whatever crazy idea Maradona had in his mind about the three goal keepers in the squad.
    2014- Romero
    2018- ?

    It seems that Romero will be the first choice goal keeper for Argentina in 2018 also! In between his debut in 2009 and 2018, were there no other goal keepers worth trying? If he plays as the starter in 2018 also, it will be a rarity in Argentine football history because no goal keeper, not even Fillol, or Nerry Pumpido or Goycochea was the first choice in three consecutive world cups! Does this show that Argentina has a dearth of goal keepers? Or is it the case that Romero is better than the legends like Fillol and Goycochea? It does not seem so. Romero’s selection has always been controversial. In 2014, at least one goal keeper was better than him- Caballero. In 2018, there will be more than one keeper who are better than him.

    If we analyse the case of our our forwards or midfielders, the same can be seen. How do you justify Higuain going to a third consecutive world cup ahead of the likes of Icardi, Dybala,and Alario?

    The point I wanted to make is simple. It is not that we don’t have enough talent, the problem is that on the one hand, we are wasting talent where as we are overusing some players for no obvious reason.

    Despite of our poor performance in Sub 20, I would say that we have two good under 20 players- Ascacibar and Barco, which is a great achievemnt. Now will Ascacibar get a chance ahead of Mascherano, Biglia, or Augusto? No. Then what is the point in producing talent? Just to waste them? Argentina’s destiny is pre-written! Even if Argentina wins this under 20 and there were 10 new players, it wouldnt make any difference as they will not get selected to our NT.

    NB: This is not in reply to anyone commented below. I was just voicing my concerns.

    • Ascacibar? Really? This guy is not good enough to compete with Ecuadorian and Uruguayan youth players yet you think he can compete with strong national team mids like Germany, Spain, France, Portugal, Croatia, England (which national team I don’t like), Brazil, Belgium etc? Ascacibar maybe talented, but talent is one thing, competing with top teams from other nation is a whole different ball game. The talk has now gone from Kranevitter to Ascacibar here on Mundo.I remember when Krane was the second coming of Masche and look what happen to him. None of those average Argentinaean players at the U20 CONMEBOL tournament would make the USMNT or the Mexican NT let alone starting for Argentina. Not every talented young NCAA basketball player make it to the NBA. As for Romero, he had nothing to do with Argentina losing any of those finals. Note: Romero has the goal scoring clean sheet record for Argentina NT goalkeepers. Barco? Do you guys listen to yourselves? These guys are not even good enough to play for Azerbaijan senior national team let alone Argentina. Guys stop living in a football bubble with the constant over praise of all these over hyped young players.

      • rom is a great shot stopper but credit to clean sheets must also go to our past brilliant defences but in saying that the biggest problem with rom is he does not inspire his team from the back, you need to have confidence in ones g/k and he just does not radiate that winning attitude, simply put he is a nice guy and is properly some one you could have an ale with but the best g/k the world has seen are arrogant, loud and nasty-every thing rom is not hence he sits on benches more then he plays.

        the manure fans say the same about him, they say he just does not inspire confidence between the sticks.

        rom is his own worse enemy.

      • KidultHood,

        Just one question

        why are you talking about players like Ascacibar or Barco while you don’t know nothing about them? What do you know actually about Barco apart the minutes he has played on the Sudamericano. That’s not all he can. He is 17 – it doesn’t matter for you. If you have 3 much really talented players (Cristian Romero, Ascacibar, Barco) surrounded by bunch of mediocree youngsters and first of all useless coach why you expectate they’ll beat Uruguay themselves.

        “These guys are not even good enough to play for Azerbaijan senior national team let alone Argentina”

        This is exactly what you were saying about, for instance Dybala, when he was yet in Palermo and had his first good season.

        Kranevitter is talented no doubt. If you want to summarise his career at his 23… good for you. The guy won Copa Libertadores with River and also Copa Libertadores U-20. He needs time. He can much more than had shown in Europe as far. But Ascacibar just more interesting that’s why Kranevitter a bit forgotten of late.

      • Only time will tell whether Ascacibar is good enough or not. Before he is given a chance in the NT, how can you assume that he cannot compete with strong national teams like Germany, Spain, France, Portugal, …. First let him get a call up, then decide. If he doesnt perform well for the NT, then I am ready to change my opinion about him. What all I am saying is that he deserves a call up. So is the case with Barco. Players like Barco and Dybala show a lot of enthusiasm in the field. They are hungry to get the ball. In a good coach’s hands, they will be moulded to their best. Barco is just 17. He can be developed into a complete midfielder. He is already showing the right attitude to track back and defend which we didnt see in Maria at this age or Pastore.
        We are producing a good number of No.5s. As you said Kranevitter is one among them. But I think Ascacibar is different as he is capable of both defending and contributing creatively. A few years ago, I used to think that Cirigliano would be a solution to our midfield issues because he is aggressive like Mascherano and creative like Gago. But he didnt reach anywhere near the NT! Now when Masche is past his prime, we do need a DM and i hope Ascacibar is the best option.
        My suggestion is clear. We should make use of the young talents
        Icardi for Hig
        Dybala for kun
        Ascacibar for Masche
        Rulli for Romero, etc.
        as we cannot play with these players for ever. Now who would be your choice if Ascacibar, Barco, etc. are not talented? Or are you saying that Maria, Romero, Higuain, etc. should play one or two world cups?

        • Gomez for Zabaleta
          Tagliafico for Rojo/Mas

          sandy, Cirigliano was very interesting on passing part and by his dynamic, but IMO he never was enough agressive in defence to compare with Masche. I think Gaspar Iniguez is very similar to Cirigliano but today better no doubt.

          For me apart Ascacibar most interesting CM in league are Alexis Castro and Emmanuel Cecchini. Nacho Fernandez among the older.

        • Ian Escobar is just 20. I see in him more attacking talent than Tagliafico has, but none LB in this nation is better in defence and none is such warrior as Tagliafico. He is 1st to NT in pecking order. Escobar only gave flashes of complete modern LB while I’m following him since his Chacarita begins.

          Although Santiago Garcia is alternative for Tagliafico here I think.

    • In my opinion, we don’t really need 8-10 great products from a single youth group. We are extremely lucky if we get 1/2 each year. Normally in 4-5 year interval period you get one group which is really great. It happens in all great football academies too. There is a saying in barca forum that once in every four years La Masia comes out with one great potential. Others are just average. Same happens everywhere.

      We have Ascacibar from this group, who is a phenomenon waiting to happen. Not only his game, but his temperament, leadership and the reading of the game. He looks like a 25 year old player, not a 20/21. That’s what is great about him.

      • Yup,

        I think our vintages 93 and 96 are really talented. THe current U-20 team is not but still the 3 players mentioned are more than talented. Ascacibar still only 19, Barco 17, Cristian Romero 18.

      • agreed and 2 good examples in the last 20 years are barca and manure who both had an incredible run with youth teams and now both are suffering at the moment and its notes both teams are buying in players the last few years because both of their academies have not been able to produce any real new talent compered to “that” cycle but as always this will change again for lots of reasons but the biggest is time needs to be invested/spent developing and maturing young talent but sadly for us this is very obviously is not some thing the afa can and will do as they simply dont care as long as their “cash cow” in messi is alive(i believe they receive a million just if messi plays each time).

        as long as messi plays the afa looks only at the money but when he is gone…..

  8. This is disaster of current Argentina team: some people still think we’re doomed for Di Maria, Aguero, Higuain and the rest of generation. We haven’t alternative…

    But it’s obvoius the generation should have gone yet after World Cup 2014. If that happened maybe we would not win Copa America 2015 or 2016 too, but then we’d have some future at least because to build new team it takes time. Now we know this team have not any future, even if they qualify to upcoming World Cup. It’s blind alley. This is going to disaster in Russia. Just because some people still think as KidultHood. And no matter how poor is Di Maria, Higuain or Aguero in NT nowadays. They believe the players are better even without form…. enough said. Unfortunately Bauza is the same mind.

    Naw you admit that Dybala and Icardi are in class of supertalents. But remember what you just kept telling here about the two so long. When others long time were seen in the two pure talent you was kept saying about things like “joke” and such kind. So let other people to estimate level of talent in this nation because everyone knows that for you Argentina football post Marias, Agueros and Higuainas no longer exists.

    Just wait for some players who are now 20-24 till their 28-29 because it’s best age for most of footballers when they often emerged to be NT players.
    Wait what happens with players like Cartabia, Ocampos, De Paul, Kranevitter, Correa and others.

  9. What pisses me off is Uruguay which has less than 12 times the ressources (human resources to be more precise) than we have is doing a much better job at nurturing their youth…

  10. The last great Argentina U20/23 youth team was in 2008, everything that came afterwards was mediocre at best. Argentina need to keep up with the times instead of relying on the old fashion way which clearly doesn’t work today. Most of these young Argentinean players can’t even control or pass a football, if you don’t believe me go watch the 2016 Olympics U23 tournament or the current CONMEBOL U20 Championship. Losing is one thing, but playing horrible disjointed soccer is just unacceptable. All Argentina does nowadays is develop wannabe Aguero and Tevez type players (Torres is a perfect example) then sell them to the highest bidder who comes along.

    Football is three things; passing, positioning and ball control, Argentina youth system seems to forget these basics, these young players nowadays have horrible ball controlling skills which is why the current youngsters are not getting any attention from the major European teams when it comes to other position other than being a striker.

    My favorite Argentina Youth team was the 2001 version that won the FIFA youth Championship follow by the 2004 Olympic U23 Champions. Today youth teams don’t come even close when it comes to the strength in starting XI and the bench. Right now, only Dybala and Icardi are in the class of super talented young players for Argentina who make the headlines across world football while no other Argentinean young professional player ever gets mention outside the Ole and Mundo of this world.

    Some folks come on here and criticize the likes of Di Maria and Aguero when they both won Argentina a Youth Championship and Olympic championship. A few bloggers here who consider themselves as local league and youth expert believe these guys are as good as Aguero and Di Maria big toe (even out of form they’re still better and when they retire they’ll still be better).

    As I said before, the other South American teams (not name Brazil) are producing as good or even better young players than what we have in Argentina. So keep telling yourself that somehow the talent in Argentina are so good that they should all be on the national senior team.

    When Messi, Masche, Aguero, Di Maria, Pastore, Gago, Banega, Zabaleta, Garay, Tevez, Biglia, Higuain etc. generation retires the Argentina nt is done!! This is the last great assemble of Argentinean top class youth and senior team players. The fear factor will be gone as well.

    I have seen many great/good Argentina youth teams over the years and it has gotten really bad post 2008. The AFA needs to set up a new youth mechanism across the country, invest more in the youth academies, pay more attention to player technique, develop better youth mids and defs, learn from other countries, invest in track and field type coaches to train the young players how to develop into better athletic players, get football professional ideas from the French, Germans, English (when it comes to their football disciplinary system), Brazilian (like studying their RB and LB development system because that’s where Brazil always stay strong no matter how other position on their team got weaken over the years). Another thing, develop better stadiums and better playing surface that will improve young players ball control and technique. Argentina is relying on everything that is old in football, when you’re still playing in 1978 style football stadium then you know you’re left behind compare to Europe and some parts of Asia. You can’t keep on doing the same old things and not expect the other South American nation to pass you by over time. No doubt Argentina is producing good enough young strikers but that’s about it, no great young mids or defs to back them up. When the striker/forward barrel run dry then what next? Assign Jaun Pablo Sorin as the person responsible for developing/scouting LB and RB young Argentinean players. Assign Gabriel Heinze as the person responsible for developing/scouting young Argentinean defenders. Assign the likes of Fernando Redondo and Pablo Aimar as the two people who are responsible for developing/scouting young Argentinean CDM, CM and AM players. All these youth team failures are not good for the national team in the long run.

    • “Some folks come on here and criticize the likes of Di Maria and Aguero when they both won Argentina a Youth Championship and Olympic championship”.

      Perhaps if they (Di Maria, Aguero, Higuain and others) were left NT in right moment (i.e. after last WC) then we only remember their for good things of past. But they didn’t left to give place new players. So now I don’t like them very much indeed.

  12. The future is very worrying. I, personally, don’t buy at all we have many talents coming in soon. In fact, i think this is a first in arg football not to have any cracks in sight. What we have is, potentially, good to very good players but most likely not cracks. Just look how many players currently in Europe are warming the bench, among the youngsters (those ones born in since 1992 and after). Except Dybala and Icardi…

    • No doubt this team has not many talents. But still sure Barco, Ascacibar and Cristian Romero are big talents. But that’s all. Not enough. A lot of mediocree players.

      Then look at the face of this coach. I see only puppet, NEMO, just figurehead without character. No idea about football. Team on WC U-20 2011 hadn’t many talents as well (was not there players talented as the 3 above) but they still were able to go relatively far in that tournament (lost quarterfinal in penalties). Because of decent coach.

      We don’t need many cracks in future. Messi, Aguero, Di Maria, Banega, Higuain, Tevez, Pastore – theoretically all they are/were cracks… and what? What’s good of it for NT? Team without clue.

      We have Dybala crack. No need for many cracks. Is Atletico Simeone team of many cracks? Nowise. But it’s team. And they are so strong to play year after year in CL final. So take rather COACH CRACK and use in right way talent of players like: Dybala, Icardi, Lanzini, Rulli, Pastore, Gomez, Tagliafico, Ascacibar, Barco, Lo Celso, Cervi, Salvio, Mammana …

      This team didn’t deserve for place in U-20 WC first of all because AFA doesn’t deserve for that. But AFA doesn’t deserve also for WC A teams in Russia. Argentina deserves for shock therapy.

      We have asinine players like Higuain, Di Maria, Aguero because of we have asinine coach. We have asinine coach like Bauza because we have asinine AFA. It’s all chanting procession of idiots.

      • To the contrary. I think you need several “cracks” in your team to be a world champion. Atleti does not have many and they lost the Champion’s League final twice…like we lost WC final once and Copa final twice.

        You don’t need a Messi like good player in every position, but you certainly need really really good and star players in every positions. You need a crack GK, crack fullbacks, crack midfielders and crack forwards along with a crack coach to form a WC winning team.

        On the matter of our future midfield linchpin Ascasibar, I have to say that If he remains in estudiantes, he will probably become another midfielder with really really low attacking output/acumen like Mascherano. He needs to move from there to any club which utilizes pressing. Otherwise there is a high % of chance that he will be playing CB in Europe, which we certainly don’t want.

        • I’ve bring back Atletico case here just because it’s opposition case to Argentina. Yes, they lose 2 finals too but they did it without superstars like Argentina had. And this is the point. We don’t need so many so called “cracks” as we had recently. We need DYbala in future, his best, maybe 1-2 cracks more but no need to fulfill a team with such idiotic bunch of cracks/losers with only big ego. Crack coach and collective in NT.

          • I think you are seriously misinterpreting the strength Atleti has.

            – They have Godin in defence, any top clubs will take him with open arms. He is probably the top 3 CB in the world.

            – They have a midfield of Gabi and Koke. Gabi is pretty meh, but t gets the job done whereas, Koke is arguably the most courted CM in the world alongside Veratti and Dahoud.

            – They have Griezmann, who is not really a Neymar or Messi, but certainly really good.

            I can argue here that Atleti has a better first team squad than Manchester City or Man. United. They certainly does not have the squad depth of Real madrid or Barcelona…but in term of first team quality, they are not that far behind as you are depicting.

          • But you must notice that it’s really doesn’t matter a much what players there are while SImeaone always was able to do great teams. For example somehow he knows how use players that are past his best (once Villa, Torres) to build team that is able to compete with full of superstars Real and Barcelona. That is really not the same level and number of talent.

            I’m just talking about Simeone to suggest that with smart coach we even don’t need a lot of cracks in NT to go far in tournaments.

          • O yes, I absolutely agree with that. With the players we currently have and even if you keep aguero, Higuain and Di Maria et al., a half decent coach will be able to do wonders. Just give us a Lowe, who I rate an average manager, will be able to make us play scintillating football.

        • He will not remains in Estudiantes for sure.
          I agree he need European touches to be more attacking but he is already more attacking player than Mascherano. Apart assist and key pass against Colombia…

          for example: look at the run here 30:57s
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pv1v_EvSc

          actually this is something you never see Mascherano is doing

  13. Sad..Sad..There r times we worried about getting past qf. Now we r worrying about qualification itself. It is reflected in all formats of the game. The painful irony is not only afa, people of Argentina also seems to lost the interest in their national side. I can safely say lot lot of Indians care for Argentina football than lot lot of Argentines..

  14. AFA says: so what? so what if we loose? Why do you always make a big fuss? Afterall its just a game… thats all… why the hue and cry and rolling in the mud?
    .
    Fan asks: but our youth of the yesteryears were the best (Pekerman era, Tocalli era) and those players later went on to become some of the world best and ultimately reached 3 consecutive finals too
    .
    AFA replies: i dont know what you are talking about. Dont waste our time. We are not interested in football…

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