Former Argentina international and current head coach of Velez Sarsfield, Gabriel HEINZE spoke about the current problems that have plagued Argentine football for far too long.
“It’s everyone’s fault. It’s not just the journalists that need to be blamed but also the players, the coaches and the leaders. There is a general problem. What we see today is a huge manifestation because it happened at the World Cup. Truth is, this has been ongoing since the Copa America and the qualifying rounds. The problems have been building every single day because of the decisions made by some people”.
HEINZE continued to point out that he was referring to people who were in charge of the AFA and also the national team.
“What they have to do is let go those who are incapable and people who benefit personally but that is something which is going to be very difficult to do. There are many people who do not know what the Argentine National Team is, nor what the emblem represents, nor do they have what it takes to sweat for this shirt. And there are people who do not have a clue about football. As long as these people continue to govern and make decisions, things will go wrong eventually”.
Copa team
Mercado – otamendi – Garay – Rojo
Ascasibar – lo celso
Messi ———banega
Dybala
Icardi
IF U THINK MESSI IS THE REASON WE ARE PLAYING BAD AND OUR TEAM WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER WITHOUT MESSI, THEN WE SHOULD WAKE UP! Or u dont know football or you are just an Idiot. Argentina is a mediocre Team now without Messi. We are like Panama without Messi. Look at week teams like Spain Team And Nigeria Team scoring at will on us 6:1, And 5:2. And What Happened to them in WC. Without Messi we we cant even beat USA and Panama. Argentina is not Argentina anymore. Stop comparing Argentina with Old Argentina Team. Dont think we still have Requlmes, Maradonas, Ayalas, Sorins or Batis. But yes we Have Messi and because of Messi we where in the Finals and did not get humiliated in this WC. We still need Messi as a playmaker to groom our future attack Dybala, Icardi and Martinez. And we need to groom a solid defence. Bring in Ascascibar.
I agree. As the proof we did score 3 but got blown 4 goals. Of course it’s Messi’s fault that us concedee 4.
Messi is most likely the reason why we kept seeing these 05-07 generations which has been playing since 2010.
This is the new team and younger players are being proposed by experts and pundits in Argentina after the World Cup debacle:
1) Rulli (goalkeeper)
2) Axel Werner (Boca)
3) E. Mammana
4) N. Tagliafico
5) J. Luis Gomez
6) Martinez Quarta
7) N. Tripichio
8) L. Ocampos
9) L. Celso
10) Paredes
11) Lanzini
12) Acuna
13) S. Ascacibar
14) Centurion
15) Dybal
16) A. Correa
17) Cervi
18) L. Martinez
19) L. Alario
20) M. Icardi
21) Messi
Whoever is the next coach should just select the best or most promising players for each position without looking at their age. ie, go for talent rather than experience. Also discard all players who are currently above 28 (as they will be 32 by the time next WC starts) with the exception of Messi due to obvious reason. We could never exploit Messi, the goal scorer as we couldn’t provide him with support from behind. But we could still witness Messt, the play maker. He could be our Iniesta (Iniesta at peak) in the next world cup.
Ascacibar is our most promising DM, so rather than going for Battaglia, go for Ascacibar.
Lautaro
Pavon | Messi | Dybala
Ascacibar | Lo Celso
Tagliafico | Mussachio | Mammana | Bustos
Rulli
If Argentina had a player like Juan Cuadrado or Ashley Young or Willian playing against France Mbappe speed would have been easily neutralize. Sampaoli leaving Rojo as the last defender to go head on with Mbappe was suicidal at best and in the end only one outcome was likely in a foot race between the two players..The simple truth is, Rojo should have never been in a foot race with Mbappe 40 yards from his own goal area. What was Rojo supposed to do in that situation against Mbappe? Which other Argentina defender on the planet was going to win against Mbappe in a foot race in the same situation? Uruguay neutralize Mbappe for most of the game because of Diego Laxalt (another player of African descent).
When Slowzio came on Argentina conceded three goals in the second half. At least with Rojo on the pitch France only scored 1 goal which no one can blame Rojo for because Mbappe was just outright quicker than the entire Argentina team. Was Slowzio going to win against Mbappe in a foot race or any other Argentina defender? Slowzio almost gifted Griezmann a free tapin because he had poor communication with Armani in what was a simple back pass.
People are kidding themselves here if they think players like Perades, Ascicibar, Pezella (was a part of the Nigeria 4-2 defeat and another U20 flop), Bataglia (another U20 world cup flop) would have made a difference against France. If you compare the players of France, Germany, Spain, Brazil, Belgium and England who didn’t get selected for the 2018 world cup to Argentina players who were left off the roster the difference in quality was so severe.
So for example Argentina didn’t take Perades, Ascicbar, Bataglia, Icardi etc. to the World cup <<<<<< France not taking Benzema, Bakayoko, Adrien Rabiot, Layvin Kurzawa, Alexandre Lacazette, Kondogbia, Moussa Sissoko etc. to the world cup.
<<<< Spain not taking Jaun Mata, Héctor Bellerín, Álvaro Morata, Javi Martinez, Marcos Alonso, Sergi Robrto, Daniel Parejo, Pedro, Fabregas etc. to the world cup.
The only way to close the threat was playing defensive football so that France won’t get enough space. They are also not good when they are in possession. We could have defended tightly and counter attacked them especially since our defense has not been stable.
It was not any african player who controlled Mbappe for Uruguay, in fact he was not controlled in that match as well. As he ran past the defense and sent a cross to the centre, but even his own team mates couldn’t keep up with his speed and reach there. Uruguay played defensive game and Mbappe never got the space in front. When there is no such space, his threat is almost gone.
Mbappe did nothing special against Uruguay other than doing a Neymar 2.0..The players who made the difference against Uruguay were Griezmann, Pogba and Kante..
Well said mate you know what talking you re real football fan
Well said mate you know what you talking about you re real football fan
I don’t believe rojo and otamandi re bad defenders but system we played finish them if they play under defencev coach like simoene or Alex sabella they will been very good that is my opinion
Kidulthood – Spot on
Sampaoli from my perspective should have played the following backline from the start of the tournament and asked them to stay back and absorb the attack.
Mercado – Otamendi – Fazio – Rojo
If you look closely at the first goal, the issue was with Taglifico or tactics. Taglifico did absolutely nothing in attack and was always out of position in defence. When the whole world knows that Mbappe is quick, they should have defended deep. Instead they just had a high line that was playing into France strength. The reality is we did not have the right team nor the right tactics. I for sure think Taglifico is no great left back from a defence perspective. But what did he contribute to the offense in the world cup. Absolute zero
Folks here keep talking about Messi and friends. I wanted an absolute overhaul of the team in 2014 after the worldcup, so that the youngsters can play together for 4 years. We had Tata who did not have the spine to take risk at Barcelona nor Argentina. Not sure if the coaches fear media or what? No player can infuence a team selection even if it is Messi. Banega was Messi’s buddy. He did not make it to 2014 WC. When we reached the world cup we were a completely disjointed team courtesy to Sampaoli. He selected probably 19 of the best talent we had but played the 3-4 who should not have made it in the first place ( Cabellero, Meza, Salvio, Taglifico). Now the only choice we had to play as a team in the world cup was to play with the 11 who knew each other well. This bullshit that everyone passed the ball to Messi and we failed to deliver comes from folks who either have Messi Phobia or do not know football. Meza and Pavon just did not have it in them to get the ball from Messi and playback. It was too much of an ask for these folks to play against team that park the bus.
We just need to acknowledge the lack of talent and move on. For a trophy you need a working team. Portugal did it. Teams like Croatia and England are going to be in the finals. One of them might win it. But I would not be happy if Argentina would have won any trophy the way Portugal won Euros.
This site is now filled with hypocrites like Gonzalo who did not support Argentina during world cup because of some nonsense. Just vexed reading the comments of these folks who lack understanding the game.
I will go for a smooth and progressive changes for the team reconstruction. It’s impossible to find another 10 new players with 0 experience and make a team. They will learn nothing and have no reference, can even hurt their confidence. We need the experienced players to stay a bit in order to pass their knowledge. But the new coach should keep in mind that the old ones need to be replaced at some points.
In any case, Messi got to be here unless he choose to get retired.
I can still see Romero, Otamendi, Di Maria and Aguero be picked up in the next 2 years in hoping that the new players can do better. They may be sub sometimes, especially for Kun and Angel. For the rest, I think we have better options than Fazio, Higuain, Mercado, Enzo Perez, Salvio, ..etc. I continue to maintain that Di Maria is a world class player and can make the difference with 1 or 2 actions. But he should be seen as a right winger, no more a left winger or midfielder. Of course, nothing guarantee his place if someone is better.
Tagliafico, Meza and Acuna are all 26-27. The first 2 maybe not but Acuna deserves to continue. Acuna didn’t play at his position, even though his official position at Benfica is left winger, but most of the time he plays as a box to box. Now Samapoli asked to play as advanced fullback. People should understand it’s not easy for him. Tagliafico was a pure disaster: 0 intelligence in his replacement, unable to cut the space, always late on the players. Meza the same, none of his controls was good and lost all dribble.
Pavon: he failed to deliver anything in this WC and everyone had high expectation from him. Like Acuna and Di Maria, he didn’t play at his best position. With his club he is left winger forward. So I can understand but he should be replaced if anyone better. I think Cervi, Centurion and Joaquin Correa are all not bad, at least as talented as him.
Like I said, a shock therapy means forget Copa 2019 and even WC 2022. If that means high chance to bring back the cup in 2026, I will buy it any day.
BUT, everyone needs great patience. AFA, the coach, the players, and especially the fans!!! Are we ready for that? Or will we ask for the coach’s head after 3 rounds of the qualification?
I myself support a 8-12 years plan to win at least one WC as long as I see real commitment from AFA
Stop trolling for AFA and all the status quo.
“Tagliafico, Meza and Acuna are all 26-27. The first 2 maybe not but Acuna deserves to continue”
So you want to drop Tagliafico and on the other hand:
“I continue to maintain that Di Maria is a world class player and can make the difference with 1 or 2 actions. But he should be seen as a right winger, no more a left winger or midfielder”.
The player who did absolutely nothing in this WC behind the goal. And I hear that since years that Di Maria is just playing in wrong position. I heard before: he should play LF instead of LM, he should play LM instead of LF, he should play on the right wing rather. There’s always excuse for him.
“Pavon: he failed to deliver anything in this WC and everyone had high expectation from him. Like Acuna and Di Maria, he didn’t play at his best position. With his club he is left winger forward. So I can understand but he should be replaced if anyone better. I think Cervi, Centurion and Joaquin Correa are all not bad, at least as talented as him”.
Another from children community of Mundo that expectates immediete results. Didn’t you wanted before WC such as Meza, Pavon? Now you want other youngster to give up on them after first mistakes?
I’m not a fan of Pavon but it’s just childishness
And I know AFA want to keep still some famous players of old guard (not only Messi) because they are best money makers. Famous names, even if shadows of past quality, attract more crowd for friendlies than unfamiliar names from smaller clubs while is well known fact that AFA is short-sighted just like Argentina clubs when it’s going to collect money. AFA management is always in fear being fired so the people want quickly to cash as much as possible before another rulers will come.
Exactly, AFA will favor popularity instead of playing form . Masche still play in every single game at mid 30’s and being given a multitask (playmaking and defending) , wtf ?!
If you include the subtitutions, there were 8 players from 2014 WC and qualifier that played in opening game against Iceland (Higuain, Aguero,Di Maria, Messi, Biglia, Mascherano, Banega & Rojo) . Seriously, Argentina isnt a team that lack of new talents. Ascacibar would have outplayed Masche and Biglia at once. They wasted this WC for the last hurrah for 2005-2007 youth generations.
Just have a look on the players of those 4 semi-finalists, 11 players are current and former players under Pochettino: almost half of England team(Walker, Rose, Trippier, Dier, Alli, Kane), Belgium(Alderweireld, Vertoghen, Dembele, Chadli), France(Lloris). Besides, you can count in Son and Eriksen who are the talisman of their team. Another thing is most of them were rather unknown before Pochettino. There is no doubt that this guy is currently one of the best(if not already the best). Can you imagine how benefit for Argentina football if we have 5-6 players working with him on a daily basis.
Sure, just get rid of everyone and start over, clean slate right! What could possibly go wrong?
You can’t just stop playing all the current players of this generation immediately and then hope the next just “click” when they are put together on the field.
For instance, the next Copa America 2019, players like Messi, Aguero, Banega, Otamendi will HAVE to play no matter what anyone thinks in order to even have a CHANCE of winning. It’ll be hosted in Brazil to make matters more difficult, so the odds of us winning are very very low. I would even consider keeping Di Maria in the mix as well.
Mascherano and Biglia are finished. They WILL be replaced. Enzo SHOULD be finished. He should also be replaced. Players like Meza, Salvio, Acuña should NEVER wear the Argentina jersey again!
The new players like Lanzini, Lo Celso, Icardi, Dybala, Paredes, Martínez, etc, should be introduced slowly but steadily. What club buys a player and gives him his full on debut the next day 90 minutes from then till when he retires? It takes time, several games before he can be considered a starter. Tagliafico has talent, but was pushed to quickly into the starting 11. He should have been given time to adapt.
This is why Friendlies are SO important! To see what you got, so the players can get a feeling with one another. But experience must be around them in order for them to accomplish anything. Put 11 players who have never played together, sure they might score a goal or two, but against better opposition let’s see how they’ll do.
Messi, Aguero, Banega (especially), Otamendi, Romero HAVE to play the Next Copa America 2019! The goal should be to have a new looking team by the Copa America 2020.
By that time, there could be a new midfield, defense, goalkeeper, etc.
What was wrong this World Cup was the coach! The players were there, unfortunately on the bench. Banega was introduced only after losing 3-0 to Croatia. They’ve had an easy road to the Semifinals that WE should be there! We gifted them that opportunity. Had he played, we might not have lost, or at least by such a margin. Dybala barley saw the ball. Fazio introduces at the WORST possible moment. The GK they all suck, so we had no control over that. But the team was there, the problem was the coach leaving them on the bench to watch the old timers get it done (Mascherano, Biglia, Enzo).
Had Dybala, Lo celso, Fazio Aguero played EVERY GAME, I guarantee you we’d still be there. But it’s what it is, a shame!
“For instance, the next Copa America 2019, players like Messi, Aguero, Banega, Otamendi will HAVE to play no matter what anyone thinks in order to even have a CHANCE of winning. It’ll be hosted in Brazil to make matters more difficult, so the odds of us winning are very very low. I would even consider keeping Di Maria in the mix as well”.
Did AFA hired you to support ancient regime?
Do you want all this players to make people sick.
And I hear once again: it’s not the time for changes, because… Copa is there. Just like I once heard after 2014 WC. “The new players…
should be introduced slowly but steadily. WHy young always SLOWLY?
What for Aguero. He is not player for 2022 WC. He will be 34. And how he is need for 2019 Copa. What he is doing so much good that he is irreplaceable. He is just waiting there for pass to score. Icardi and Martinez may do that as well. Aguero did not nothing more in this WC.
Banega?!!! What he did apart one fine assist. Nothing. Against France he proved one more time to be unreliable in defence and his creativness is limited to lower opponents. How he is must for Copa? Both Lo Celso or Paredes may do the thing he did easily.
DI Maria???!!! You are just crazy. What he did in this WC?
I prefer shock therapy now (even with few friendlies lost) and drastic changes, in the name of better future. There’s no room for half-measures.
Yea…. use the shock therapy. Brings in all new players and hope for the best. It won’t work!
Look at France for example!
What different between the 11 France has now versus the 11 that played Portugal in the Euro 2016 final?
The foundations are the same, Griezmann, Giroud, Pogba, Matuidi, Umtitti, Lloris. The changes are the wingers and Defence.
The fullbacks are different, with Hernandez and Pavard, Mbappe, Kante WAS in the squad in Euro 2016, so you can’t say he is “new” to the team, and Varane, who’s in for the injured Kolscielny.
See the difference?
6 Of the players there’s have experience under Deschamos, expierenxe with the French National Team. It’s not a brand new team as the media wants to point it out. Sure Mbappe is the youngest player there and is shining, also PAVARD and Hernandez, but the base is the same. And Varane is just world class defender. But the experience is there.
Now people want Argentina to scrap the old (Banega, Messi, Aguero, Otamendi, etc) and start brand new? That’s like a company firing all their employees and hiring all new employees to run the business. That’s setting up for failure. Anyone who knows anything about this topic can tell you. It will NOT work. Argentina will be a laughingstock, and may be demoted all the way to the 30’s in power rankings if that were to happen. And you need experience, period!!! Aguero might not make it to 2022, fine, but that doesn’t mean you get rid of him like a rag either. Where is the logic in that?
Messi is the only reason why Argentina made it to the World Cup to begin with, and players of the “future” like Pavon, Meza, Icardi when they had their chance, they didn’t produce.
Let’s not talk about four years from now and lose every friendly, Copa America in hopes of winning the World Cup. If we can’t win title in South America, much less we will win the World Cup!!
Leave emotion out of this and use your logic! Things like leaving Messi Out? Good luck in World Cup qualifying against Brazil, Uruguay, Chile (out for vengeance), Colombia, Peru without Messi. Good luck in Copa America’s without him.
We have potential, but all those players with potential, look what that got us. All our goals scored this World Cup came from veterans. Potential didn’t produce anything. Goals from Aguero, Messi, Di Maria, Rojo, Mercado, all from veterans.
Don’t let emotion get carried into your reasoning. It’ll lead to failure every time.
The comparisons to France are completely irreleveant:
“What different between the 11 France has now versus the 11 that played Portugal in the Euro 2016 final?”
The foundations are the same, Griezmann, Giroud, Pogba, Matuidi, Umtitti, Lloris.
1. Griezmann, Pogba, Umtiti are young players unlike our oldies.
2. If our oldies were blooming and have raising up tendency like France 2 years ago I would like to see them again in team. But it’s long time obvious they are descending year after year.
You want to keep players like Di Maria or Banega that are not guarantee of nothing. You need to give him at least few games to see one thing good from them.
@gonzalo-pity-martinez
Then, we will be leaving the next World cup in group stages, let alone qualification,
After that because of the 48 teams participation we might go to next round. That situation will persist for at least 2 more cycles.
Good luck in the shock therapy approach.
You are wrong:
In 2006 WC we had great team that were able to fight for gold. And who of that team was continuation of 2002 team starters? Only Ayala, Sorin and Crespo (Crespo was not even starter in 2002). Brand new team. And still Sorin and Crespo were 30 old years players in 2006, not players after 30 as will our oldies in upcoming years. So you are wrong. Brand new team within 4 years period can be rebuilded and prepared well to compete against best teams.
Another myth of Messi and the oldies generation lovers want to push
From all 23 players of 2006 WC only the 3+Aimar (though he didn’t played any important role in 2002 and 2006) were continuation of 2002 team. And only Ayala had more than 30 years.
Brand new team, prepared well within even than 4 years. You see – possible.
If you want to bring examples from history, then what about Zidane in 2006? he came out of international retirement at 34, he guided France to the final. France would have been eliminated at the group stage if it wasn’t for him, right?
In 2002 they went out limping in the group stage, and in 2004 Euro they were knocked out in the second round, 2 years later they were WC finalists, they kept their core players and introduced new talent, they were back at top in no time.
Enough of your hating at the backbone of our NT, It is 100% obvious.
But with these players that’s impossible.
Yes if not now,then when?! Tata messed it up big time after the last worldcup- the main reason why we are in such a state now!( AFA is another story)
You are very correct in everything my friend.
“You can’t just stop playing all the current players of this generation immediately and then hope the next just “click” when they are put together on the field.”
“The new players like Lanzini, Lo Celso, Icardi, Dybala, Paredes, Martínez, etc, should be introduced slowly but steadily.”
Exactly, This is how WE can rebuild the team. We have to keep our core players , and introduce new players slowly but steadily, Any team or mostly any thing that requires rebuilding goes through this process. you keep the foundation and rebuild on top. new players will always need experienced players around them even if they just set on the bench.
I am always a fan for a young coach who had top level international player experience. Look at the 4 semi-finalist teams, there is always at least 1 former top player as head coach or coaching assistant: Deschamps and Southgate for France and England, Henry for Belgium, Olic for Croatia. Besides, Cambiasso also working for Pekerman. I think we need the same, why not leveraging all those former players experience. Nobody knows better the football as they do, there is less gap with the players generation, easier for communication. Can you imagine if we have coach assistant like Riquelme, Ayala and Batigol. There will be no problem of legacy, all players will respect them.
I don’t know Heinze’s coaching style, how his team plays and how good he is(if someone here can tell me, unfortunately I don’t have access to Argentine local league), but according to his player experience, he used to work with a lot of great coaches in the past: Bielsa, Pekerman, Halilhodzic, Fergusson, Capello, Juande Ramos and Deschamps, rather impressive! He must have learnt a lot from all these big names. I hope he will have a great coach career and why not leading the national team.
Seriously why on earth is some still saying that we should have played with this players, this Formations etc etc, Even putting player line ups, Whats the point now, Its over for us,the current generation is finished, Forget Messi he cant continue for ever. Time and Age catches and conquers everyone. Will he continue let us see. I don’t think so. Today or Tomorrow we have to face the inevitable, We have to move on and start a new generation.
Only 1 thing is pending will Sampaoli continue for now or will he coach us till the Copa. I don’t really know how to feel about Sampa now. lost the entire confidence in him. I for one trusted him a lot. Never thought he would make so many mistakes. Lets see how this mess will finish.
Why delay the inevitable?? if not fired now, he will be fired later. Didn’t they just fire all his staff,. they keeping him and not them?
Hard to say if Sampaoli will continue. He still has this contract with AFA which expires in 2 years. If he resigns now, he will get nothing. So I doubt if he has the courage to do so. But if he has a little bit pride, he should resign. I guess by the end, the AFA will find a solution to settle with him, maybe paying him half of the fee related to his contract. I remember I read a post here that mentioned that Sampaoli was accused of sexual harassment, I don’t know if it’s AFA’s setup so that they can fire him easily and no need to pay him if it does not work. To follow.
Maybe El Gringo should join this site and start posting nonsense as well.
Nicolas Gonzalez to sttugratt almost done.
Would be good. With Ascacibar. 2 our promising players of ’97 category in the same team.
Whats your point Heinze? Everyone giving an interview says the same thing….Everyone in this forum knows it..
Interview for some journalists. He just replied. He may also want Sampaoli’s job.
If we want to increase argentina s level we should analyse what doesn t work. And guys nothing have worked in this world cup. Sampaoli tactics were so bad then nobody follow it. The player selection was bad too because of messi or sampaoli decision i dont care about it the fact is we re paying for not having mussachio garay lamela paredes the 2 correia ….etc
Meza and pavon took their chances but they just need more time to perform which is completely normal.
Dybala played for 20 mn !!!!the guy is juventus best player for the last 3 years but everybody knows why he didn t play. I m just wondering why the person who block him didnt make the difference as he used to maybe a family conflict. I put so much hope on that guy for 10 years except 2006 when he was 19. 2010 ok he was fine perticipating on every play we were defeated by Germans and everybody was blaming maradona. 4 years later the kid make a great tournament except the final game where the first time he had fallen on his autistic attitude and then next 2 final games against chili. This time we had part of it on every game except the first one as he tried to do everything but he wasn t in his day but the attitude of next games were a shame from the best player of the world.
Forthe defense weakness i was saying here that otamendi is not what we re expecting from the defense but people see him playing for man city believe he s great and he s not at all. Rojo also but it s not a secret at all remember when sabella first try him as central and it doesn’t work at all. Tagliafico don t help the defense he play so on the top that caust us the game against france. Biglia and masche should not been selected. Lo celso made all the preparation and then 0 mn on the field even biglia whom have played few minutes in 4 months has more played.
The false 9 was desastrous and sampaoli just didn t know what he has to do .
We still have di maria aguero banega they shouldn’t be selected in the future even messi because this time they have really failed. A captain without reaction to the elimination is n t what we re expecting for maybe barcelona is more important so get the air to your feet nobody expect your comeback in argentina so don t be back please stay with your friends you could organise football games with your friends but not in argentina no more man
What is this “speed” thing people are talking about lately??
To some people own information, Argentina had always had fast players.
Remember 78 winning squad?? Too many fast and skillfull players. Do you remember Caniggia? He was one of the fastest players ever played the game and the only one combining this phenomenal speed with suberb technique and excellent finishing. The list is long, claudio lopez, batistuta, killy gonzalez, redondo, saviola, zanetti, di maria, messi, aguero, and even now, pavon, the correas, ocampos (a super talented player in my humble opinion but unfortunately didn’t develop properly up to now, he is still 23 years old though), pity martinez, unnown players such as espinoza and luque (this player had a phenomenal speed, Gonzalo i am sure you are aware of him from primera), bustos and many others. We have fast and physical players, the reason that we were slow in this world cup wasn’t that we don’t have fast players but the tactics that were used which made us seem that slow. I am sure that this “possession” football that we were playing had nothing to do with the original Argentine “tiki tiki” well known from it’s quick one touch passes, the fast transition and the ability to unleash flash speed counterattacks. Examples are too many! Remember 94 wc? I am from Greece, do you remember Argentina’s opening goal? Just count how much time took for Argentina to counter Greece from the time Argentina recovered the ball from it’s own half to the goal. See the third goal as well. You will need the replay to realise where the ball was after the numerous one touch passes before the goal. Even with Sabella we used to unleash flashy counterattacks with just three one touch passes with the same senior players. We used to be the fastest counterattacking team, remember the qualifiers?
As i said numerous times before, Argentina always had talented and fast players. This is not the problem. Our real problem is what heinze said.
@waveride
yes, I still have some hope about Carlos Luque remembering very well his performances in 2011 youth WC when he was our best player off field IMO, if I remember correctly, being the youngest one at the same time. Fantastic speed on the left flank but not only speed. He is wandering since years here and there. Now back to Internacional. I have the clause of patience to wait always to players 28 taking into account possible retarded effects on talent showing. So we should wait a bit more to see wheter thee Luque talent will not emerge finally.
“I am sure that this “possession” football that we were playing had nothing to do with the original Argentine “tiki tiki” well known from it’s quick one touch passes, the fast transition and the ability to unleash flash speed counterattacks. ”
I miss those play 🙁
Wonderfully sumup Waver
I miss too
Qatar just approached FIfa that they are willing to host a 48 nation WC. That would make qualification easier…
Also for Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Chile etc.
16 groups of 3
Loser 1st match plays team that did not play yet.
number 1 and 2 of each group (32 teams) progress to knock out stage.
48 teams instead of 32 is more for the business, how many Iceland-Sweden style games? Will be just make the world cup even more boring.
Have you guys seen what Kempa said about National team and Messi
Nope can you post a link pls.
@El Principe
if you called me
You are one of those pathetic members which still want to deny the fact the oldies failed. That’s the fact. Maybe Meza was big disappointment but does this anything change (it’s just one local player who failed). He was only the “role player” as you’ve said. THe actors were old guardy. I never expected there are so dishonest members here they will want to deny if they will fail in the WC the generation was some time defunctional and we made a mistake few years ago trusting them too much instead rebuild the team.
Now you want to defend thing that is indefensible. What do you want to defend? What do you want to say? You want to rewrite history a new and convince us that the oldies succeed in this WC? What a propaganda!
I have wrote here before Nigeria game I refuse supoorting the oldies as form of protest against domination ancieme regime in team and AFA, all that to led us to the moment we are. Form of protest against all the players and people that were blocking good, healthy, refreshing in time changes. Just like Simeone may refuse Argentina coaching till some things in management will remain I refused supporting the old guardy because they are part of standstill, staganation in Argentina football. I’ve said if they will go far then quarterfinal I will never comment here more as I lost believe and convincing in my own knowledge and intuition. But if they not, I expectate from some members they will at least able to admit the NT should have been rebuilded after WC 2014 or Copa 2015.
I see you choose way of denial. But you can’t do that without being ridicule.
And you know why @pipita sounds similar to me in last years? I think because at some point he decided to broaden his horizons and start to watch not only European football but also Argentina at their sources to see how it actually is. Now giving opinions he may be taken as someone reliable having knowledge on both European clubs and from local league. Why you are total ignorant about domestic players, I know that very well. Maybe you have enough time to watch top European clubs, and of course a lot of NBA, but I’m sure not a bit of Argentina league. Taking into account your football comparisons to NBA maybe you like sport rivalry generally at his top popular level, but for sure your knowledge about current potentiall of Argentina local youngsters = 0. So stop judge about things you don’t know.
@pipita is also someone who had enough moral strenghts and courage to admit in some point that Higuain is no more reliable player despite the fact he has his nickname still. He is able to admit such things, I’m able to admit Meza was disappointment but you, being apparently fan of just one generation, can’t admit it was wrong to stick on the generation for last years. I’m sure dominant felling people have now is feeling of wasted years. While you want to say the years were not wasted…. It’s no coincidece you become most active memeber here when the generation was all back for Nigeria game and you wereeven convincing us all we need is give it all that to Messi and co, let them being self-management. You love the generation so much, you can’t admit they failed. After 2016 Copa you’ve said the generation, having 30 years’ will be at best age to succeed in Russia… You can’t just admit being wrong.
There are few myths people who wanted the old guardy to last were trying and try to convince us for years:
1. The old generation is best we have, they are guarantee of success
if they still can’t succeed they bring another myth:
2. There’s nothing interesting about talents in Argentina to come hence we must play still with the Old Guardy
3. Only players form European big clubs are able to succeed, while we have not young players in such clubs we must keep still with the Old Guardy
Just don’t believe that. Everyone who is following closely young generations in Argentina and in Europe is rather optimistic we have material to build a team that will be enough good to compete about things Argentina teams always were playing.
Do you remember there was any other feeling during 1998, 2002 or 2006 WC than we have a team that may fight after WC title? That’s the feeling we have always, because Argentina is always one of favourites, at least second row (as in this year).
But some people want really make us believe that without Messi we will not even qualify to WC, we have no future. Are the people realyy Argentina fans? The last is biggest and most deceitful myth. Talking as if Messi generation was the first who took us to WC.
Without Messi, Argentina would not have qualified for World cup 2018. That’s a fact. Look at the stats with and without Messi during the qualifiers and one can not deny the importance of the result in the very last round.
To me, this indicates that this team excluding Messi is poor, even in Conmebol. When Messi did not perform well during the WC, then the true (average) quality of the team was revealed. No need to deny that. Had Argentina won 3 titles in 2014-2016, surely everyone would say that this generation was the best ever. Unfortunately that didn’t happen, and now it is really time to move forward.
Do I need to bring the case always: It’s all about adaptation. In short term when Messi is out it may seem Argentina is weaker. It’s case of most teams when their best player is out suddenly. But if they will got time to adapt the results should back.
Once again as it was with Barcelona 2015/2016 when Mess was out for few months. Primarily they looked like team that is a half of the team with Messi. But after some time they were able to winning game by game and beat even Real away (4:0) what they never did so high even with Messi.
Without Messi Argentina wouldn’t have qualified this year. It’s a fact. Check the results with and without Messi
Argentina@mylove
you cannot understand what I’ve said above. That’s also fact. Messi is not need. His fans must accept that. Argentina over Messi.
The short term cost of this adaptation would have been Argentina missing WC. In my view, Argentina must participate at every WC, otherwise Fifa can cancel the whole shit. And you cannot compare Barca and Argentina out of many reasons. If you think more clearly you will understand that is comparing apples and pears.
“The short term cost of this adaptation would have been Argentina missing WC”
That’s why I was claiming for general change yet after 2015 Copa. I’ve said: if we don’t refresh team now we will found ourselve on WC 2018 with the same players that are no more able to go far. All I was hearing still was: it’s not the time for changes. The same after WC 2014, after Copa 2015, after Copa 2016, before WC 2018.
True. As soon as the world cup ends, there should be an assessment in order to form the best team possible for the next world cup. Keeping the same team to the next tournament is probably the most common mistake every national team makes, not only in Argentina, and probably one explanation of why they all fail to maintain the title. Look at Germany this year.
But who said there is no time to make changes? If you want to point at scapegoats, then look at Tata, Bauza and Sampa, the three amigos of mediocracy having no balls.
Yup. Only long term 2022 plan should be considered.
France 2002, Italy 2010, Spain 2014, Gemany 2018, Argentina 2018 all the team failed trusting too much their deserved generations – wear and tear, fatigue was stronger than power of experience.
Now first we should think about who will be in good age in 2022. For the reason IMO we should not take Aguero more even if he is much better than Higuain. Icardi, Martinez, Dybala are the players for 2022.
“Primarily they looked like team that is a half of the team with Messi.” Lol if Barcelona is something its a great team, and always was with Messi. Real Madrid has way better players atm(primilary their midfielders) but still Barca won 6 championships out of 9 in the last years and a lot of cups. CL is a different story there the more world class players count nowadays. Casemiro-Kroos-Modric-Isco midfield is too much. But always the better team win championships (not the stronger, the better). Barcelona-Real 5:0, Real Madrid-Barcelona 2:6, Real madrid-Barcelona 0:3 with Messi, please don’t skew.
“Primarily they looked like team that is a half of the team with Messi.”
Sorry – should be “initially” instead “primarily” but that’s does not change the fact that Barcelona proved to be great team also without Messi. None of the results against Real they had was so much impressive as 4:0 away when Messi was injured. But they were going from win to win also in other games..
“None of the results against Real they had was so much impressive as 4:0 away when Messi was injured. ” Dont think so, 5:0, 2:6 and even 0:3 were much more impressive and dominant, Barca simply destroyed Real in every aspect of the game, in 15 Barca just scored simply all of their chances.
And definitely against the weakest Real Madrid of the last 10 years. Benitez team was so awful, who was sacked after 10-15 matches, poor Benitez had zero credit in the dressing room, then with Zidane everything had changed.
“Barca simply destroyed Real in every aspect of the game, in 15 Barca just scored simply all of their chances”
None of the results is so much impressive as 4:0 AWAY. AWAY high win is always biggest destruction. Domination like posession is not any domination since some time what we saw already on current WC. And no, they had more opportunities to score:
youtube.com/watch?v=KY2uGNFSL_o
Most importantly that was the Real with classic squad.
Just don’t strain yourself desperately one more time trying to deny what is undeniable just like the fail of well-known generation.
Barcelona prove to be a team able to winning also without Messi.
“Just don’t strain yourself desperately one more time trying to deny what is undeniable just like the fail of well-known generation.”
Our u20 teams constant failures, our Olympics teams constant failures, not even with a similar bad result what this team archieved this year on WC for 7 years. The fail of argentine new generations is unquestionable too. At least try to be a bit realistic. When our youngsters will shine every status quo fan will agree with you. But you sit again inversely on the horse. France, England, Belgium, Brazil produced a lot of world class talents who are too good, thats the reason why these teams squads so young, not because they want to be young, which would be absurd.
Football is not lart pour lart
What you are talkin about now? You are completely off base now. WHy you suddenly jumped at other theme.
This is one of the myths people of ancient regime want to convince us. “There’s no future behind the generation”. Future will proves you wrong. And you should not think that the future is so far distant that memory about that your comments and words will be oblitered. You will to have
face your words you’ve said about Argentina being impotent. Let’s wait.
Ding ding ding. Time for break Csabalala and Gonzalo. Before next round start, let me remind you that comparing a team like Barca or any for the matter with a national team is ludicrous. Barca is training on a daily basis and can buy a new player on a position showing weakness. National teams can only wait and hope that a new talent will arise, in the meanwhile the team can only try to develop the resources available, and this is where a savvy coach steps in. And what we have seen so far, savvy is not what Sampa is.
You are a fan of the NT, you know the scores without him in the qualifiers but let me just remind you of some – first loss against Ecuador in history of Argentina NT at home, 6-1 Spain, 4-2 Nigeria.. You speak of adaptation, and yet you conveniently forget that the only reason Messi came back from retirement is because Arg COULDN’T adapt without him and would go on to have the same no. of points of Bolivia. It’s not half of a team, it’s a terrible terrible team without Messi. Every single match without him was a disaster, is it really that hard to ever have some sort of resemblance to adaptation? I know I’ll be labeled as a Messi fan boy, as does anyone who speaks highly of Messi get labeled by you, but it makes you sound like a Messi hater more than a fan of Argentina. I mean, the whole world speaks the same tune of Arg team letting down Messi, over and over and over again, and this WC the most of any tournament ever. Neutral italian coaches (you have it all online) speak of it, but Gonzalo knows better than everyone? LOL.
Argentina over Messi? Sure. But last 10 years Argentina = Mostly Messi and players/coaches/federation setting him back, no matter what you haters say
I agree with you Gonzalo, We should never blame our Young players. Meza,Pavon, Tagliafico played their 1st world cup and first tournament as NT players. We lost because we did not play as team.
The man Heinze speaks the truth..not only all the people blame players but mainly blamed the AFA or who are running the AFA..Argentina’s debacle not in the 2018 but it exposed after 2015 but it never reflects because of argetina’s performance at FIFA level…and some idiotic people said Messi should retire from national team well I told these people who said that till messi’s importance is major concern..why not dybala lo celso battaglia icardi or any body not selected this answer should be given sampaoli not Messi..in 2002 why not crespo and batistuta not played together this should be clarified form bielsa not from crespo or batistuta in 2006 why not riquelme and aimar not playing together and also messi not selected in starting eleven ahead of julio Cruz this should be clarified from pekerman not from Messi riquelme or aimar..in 2010 why not riquelme is not selected this only be told only maradona not Messi or riquelme and in 2018 why dybala and Messi not played together it only be told sampaoli not Messi or dybala… If any coach should think that he selects young guns and Messi not cope up with the other players because of age then the coach and the supporters of that decision are bogus….if Messi feel that he never delivers for barcelona and with argentina then he automatically will retire form football ….so don’t concern about him just give your opinion against the corrupted AFA persons who are destroyed our beloved argentin from grass route to senior level..after 2006 with Messi Argentina no where so don’t blame directly or indirectly Messi…
Fernando being rude doesn’t help anyone. You can justify everything. Sampaoli couldn’t take control of this team. Messi doesn’t need to retire. I still believe that sampaoli can start building up the team with messi and not around messi. I think sampaoli took the youngsters because he believes that those players are hungry enough to run their asses off on the pitch. That they take their chances and fight for it. What I missed was the right body language. Sampaoli was always as nervous as a fan. He couldn’t calm down the team when needed. He learned and I think we will see a different team in the future.
Fighting here and calling each other names won’t change anything. We all love the team and we all have different opinions. We should respect that.
Players playing at gr8 European clubs will not bring any success.We need a team, Even small team like Peru gave France horrible time
Argentina had more players in great clubs than Croatia
Di MAria(PSG,RealMadrid) > Perisic
Higuain(Juventus, a starter) > Manduzic (Juventus non starter)
Aguero(Man City) > Sabic, Strinic whatever
Messi > Modric
Dybala Rakitic
Otamendi(Man City) > Whosoever played in that position in Croatia
Banega(Sevilla) > whatever is left of Croatia
We lost because we did not play as a team despite world class players. Had Enzo scored that Croatia open goal invitation then we know things would have been different.
We severly lacked a good mobile mid field that can hold play and create more chances.
In 2010, Spain won WC,all players playing together at Barcelona and some in Madrid. Core Midfield and defense of the team came from single club.
In 2014, Germany won, almost all players from Bayern Munich
In 2014, peak of our players Aguero, Di Maria, Gago, Mascherano,Lavezzi,Zabaleta,Garay,Romero they all played together for Argentina since youth almost 10-12 years. Good team chemistry between players took us to final
Team chemistry while playing at same club/country for long time develops trust in players so much so that they succeed.
I would have played this team in 2018
——————Armani————-
–Salvio—-Otamendi——-Mascherano———Tagliafico—-
——-Lo Celso——–Enzo Parez———Banega
—–Messi————-Aguero————-Pavon/Di Maria
Mascherano although slow would have provided us calmness in back four. He played in same position in Barcelona in later years.
Enzo Parez though not liked, could have played in central midfiled because of better passing ability than Masche
————————————-
Solution is to make Argentina Club football more competitive, offer more money to young players so that they stay local and develop.Simply sending them to european clubs will lead them to play different styles , they start developing differently.
We can win with certainty if all our core players in Midfield, Defense come from single top club, Strikers and some defense players can be used from top european clubs.
We can agree that club football is more important to players than WC,COPA in their days to day life. AFA should invest time and money to bring core NT player in single club like Boca
This will lead to dominance of one club but this will work wonders for NT.
Whoever is next coach should choose 10 players, who can play together for next 10 years and play them in Copa19 with Messi. We can leave out all Oldies except Messi.
—————————–
I still say that this was our world cup. Team like Croatia,Sweden,England,Russia.Come on this Argentina team was far better than these 4 atleast.
People in studios talk about Golden Generations,Croatia golden generation, Uruguay golden gen, now english ones. Greatest golden generation is ours Messi, Aguero, Di Maria,Lavezzi, Mascherano them winning nothing is real shame to football.
I think sampaoli was sure that our attack will outscore the French team. That’s the only logical reason why our team played with that formation against French in my opinion.
See, that’s the problem. On this site, there are far too many Argentina fans who simply dismiss their opponents.
To be frank, with the exception of Messi and probably Dybala, the Croatian first team is simply better at what they do than their Argentinian counterparts. And they showed it in style, too.
The thing you fans need to firstly do, is accept that the squad is quite mediocre at the moment. Of course, this can be changed, with several young and hungry stars willing to step up to the challenge.
Argentina has a bright future ahead of it. But seriously, some of its fans need to learn some humility.
This Croatia team was getting crushed by Denmark. won on penalties. Look at FIFA rating for Argentina, Croatia then talk. England is playing 5-0-5 with no midfield…love train for set pieces,corners..schoolboyish. You should accept that team on this side of bracket are shite..
You have no idea about football man.
Resorting to ad hominem attacks betray your intelligence, or lack thereof. Please don’t trod down this beaten path. I’m sure you can do better than that.
With that said, if Croatia didn’t fare too well against Denmark, and your metric for quality is heavily dependent on results, then, where does that leave Argentina? Their performance was even more atrocious in this World Cup.
Please, you really ought to take off your fanboy shades. The team isn’t as good as you think it is. The glorious days of Argentina are sorely missed – having gobs of hubris isn’t going to change that. Accept that you can do better, and move on.
Dude I think you are blind to the facts or don’t have any clue about football. I was just making a point that we had a better team than Croatia. Our performance was bad but we did have a better team comparing individuals on both teams.
I pointed to FIFA ranking before start of world cup and you chose to ignored it. Shows your lack of judgement.
You compared Apples to oranges.
If we take Croatian team:
Attacking unit – Arg >> Croatia
Midfield unit – Croatia >> Arg
Defensive unit – Croatia >> Arg
I said defensive unit because Croatia have hard working players like Modric and Rakitic who are everywhere. Rakitic does a lot of defensive work. We may be great individually at some positions, but we were a far worse team. DiMaria is the best example. Great individual player, poor team player. He hardly links up in attacks, provide stability for midfield and cover his defensive partner.
That’s why I said we simply did not play as team. Defensive back four of Argentina >> Defensive 4 of Croatia. Otamendi,Mercado,Rojo, Tagliafico all top clubs in their country. Now Croatia backline are made of nobodies..Lovren is hated in Liverpool He is well known of playing bad and not even a starter. Only difference is Rakitic as defensive midfielder , we had masche..so we lost there. Modric is attaking midfielder and cant be called defense.
Not just Rakitic, many attacking players of Croatia help in defense. That is why even Lovren looks quite good.
Individually, our defense was better than them. But Football is a collective sport. Most of the blame should goto Sampaoli. He couldn’t build a solid system, defense, midfield in the past year. He took his experimentation a bit too far (from his first match to his most recent match against France). He should have stopped the experimentation a while ago.
He made Argentina unrecognizable as a team. We were probably the “worst team” in this world cup.
For some reason, I can’t reply to your latest riposte. Odd.
Anyway, regardless of FIFA’s rankings, Argentina still played, as a unit, levels below many of the 32 teams that qualified for the World Cup. Worse, they were trounced by Croatia, a team that, according to you, was decidedly inferior to the mighty Argentina.
In all honesty, I’d take the whole of Croatia’s defence over Argentina’s. The midfield could have a blend of both, but Modric and Rakitic are definitely better than most of the midfield in this Argentina team. Mascherano played well enough to confirm his status as a midfield lynchpin, but the rest were rather poor and ineffective.
All I’m trying to communicate to you is this – don’t sell the other teams short. They don’t have a Messi or Dybala, but they have far better defenders and midfielders. And best of all, they have team cohesion and a coherent game plan. Argentina unfortunately, doesn’t have either. We can only hope this is rectified in future, sooner rather than later.
Replace Mascherano by Rakitic and Rakitic would have made the defense look world class for this Argentina team. One good player at key position would have made the difference.
Masche of 2014 vs Masche 2018 big difference between Argies reaching Final and getting eliminated at QF stage.
Some commentators such as Kid, Gonzalo are taking this “we need black players”, “football is now for fast players” a bit too far.
There are two ways to win a game. Either be a protagonist or be an antagonist. IE, either keep attacking or keep defending and then counter attack.
Players like Messi, Neymar, Hazard, Iniesta, Coutinho (Highky skilled and fast, but not very fast) are suited for the first group. Players like Cristiano, Bale, Mbappe (super fast and skilled, but not that skilled) are suited for the second group.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
With group B players you can win by just defending and counter attacking through those players. But then you will have very less chance of winning against teams that defend too. Because these players won’t be able to break a tight defense. These group B players need fast co-players in attack and great defensive unit to stop the attacking team.
With group A players, you have better chance of winning. They can always outscore the opponents and unlock the tightest defense. The problem would be the defense are getting more and more strong, so you will need a perfect attacking unit to unlock them. There is always a chance of conceding due to opposition counter, so you will need your defensive unit be vigilant and fast to nullify the counter attacks.
Also the truth is great players can play in both systems irrespective of their group classification. It’s just that their best version is suited for a particular system. For example, Ronaldo can score a lot of goals playing for a protagonist team and Messi can score a lot of goals and assists a lot playing for an antagonist team.
Some people are saying its better to have players Mbappe than players like Messi. Mbappe was able to excel coz his team played in a system that got the best out of him. He also had the perfect players along with him (Greizmann, Giroud, Kante, Pogba, Umtiti, Varane).
While Messi didn’t have a system or players to excel. Messi needed Lo Celso instead of Meza. Messi would have been able to excel if we had a better defensive unit and attacking play maker. (a player like Iniesta, Coutinho who are both intelligent and good passers and can give the passes where he wanted).
Bring on Coutinho, Casemiro, Miranda, Marcelo and Allison in this Argentina team and we will win the cup by playing the most amazing football. And everyone would say Messi is the true magician!
Apart from the craziness of Sampaoli, we mainly lost coz players like Mascherano, Biglia, Perez, Caballero, Meza, Pavon were our key players while they should be the squad players at best.
And we didn’t use the players who should have been our key players – Lo Celso, Dybala, Ascacibar/Battaglia/Pizarro, Mussachio, Rulli, Perotti etc
It’s as simple as that!
Exactly right bro.
Hey, man!
Where I’ve said Argentina needs black players? Show me the comment.
There’s big difference between say football is still going to be more physical hence black teams have some advantage and to say straightly we need incorporate black players.
Didn’t you say Football is now for fast players? If so, sorry! I might have been mistaken.
Yeah he said something like that and its absolutely true. Go watch the Iceland game again our players went down almost after every contact. Only 3 players in their whole team were under 1,8m. They looked like American football players.
It was kid who said we need black players in team.
Gonzalo never said anything about bringing black players. It was kidulthood. We need dynamic players in midfiled and back. Look at my suggestions
That comment was given by Kid. But I thought I had read Gonzalo saying Football is now designed for ultra fast athletic players who have height. Not for short players, who knew how to play football better than anyone else. Actually I didn’t complete disagree with him. I just said those who are best at Football are still better than sprinters and physical players.
Malabari
Ok, no problem
I’m talking still about reinforcing our physical strenghts and need for taller players, looking for such talents but not about incorporating black if almost we had not such in Argentina population.
Yes, we don’t need to bring migrant players like France or Germany. We need to find balance, so need to have taller players in defense so that we don’t suffer in set pieces.
But I can’t really agree with your finding that its good to have players like Mbappe than Messi. If this Spain or Brazil or Germany had Messi or if we had some of their players, Messi would be lifting the cup. And the argument of GOAT would have also stopped there.
Actually I never said exactly: it’s better to have Mbappe than Messi but I think it is so. Not because Mbappe is better than Messi. Messi is still better than Mbappe I think but the key is balance indeed. And all I see is we can’t find and long term balance on the pitch despite the fact we had 3 coaches within 3 years. Coaches changes. I doubt each of Martino, Bauza, Sampaoli was/is weak coach. I personally see other reasons there. The all failed not just to find balance betwenn Messi and other players there but to find status for Messi that will not make other players as hors d’oeuvre for Messi.
Simply I see when Messi is there not only our young players (they primarily) but also the older can’t show his best and first of all the team is not acting as team. I know this is radical what I want to say but I really believe we must sacrifice Messi to find Argentina a new. I know this is blasphemy for Messi’s biggest fans but I truly believe that. And I know seemingly to have best player on the world on the pitch is always better than to have not him. Though not in the case when it’s doesn’t help grow our young generation.
If Messi will not retire, atleast for some time, the young boys will come one by one, talk in every interview how they are proud of being together with Messi, being his worshipers more than equal partners on the pitch that can create and be responsible for resylt just as Messi is.
Meza is one of examples. Before WC he was talking about Messi still, how he will looking for him to pass first of all and so on…
Mbappe is less monopolising player here.
That’s weird. Everyone worships Messi because he has reached that level. So you are saying we should not have one of the greatest in history, but instead have just a great player.
We had so many games in which Messi didn’t play and what was the result?
How can people protest an almost complete renewal of the NT?
Everyone but Pavon and Tagliafico that started against France was older than 30. In nov/dec 2022 they will be 34, 35 or older.
We have only friendlies until Copa 2019. In the next 11 months we must build a new team. After Copa the WC qualifiers start again and as we all witnessed over the past few years that is no time to experiment.
I completey agree. Except that the objective should be 2022, not the copa. A core of players that will be 25-30 by 2022 should be formed now. We have only four years, but it should be enough to form a solid and cohesive group. Copa would be excellent opportunity to experiment and let this core play together ahead of the wc qualifiers. But I would not discriminate anyone due to the age factor. That would be like making the same stupid mistake as Passarella did with that hair thing. If for instance Messi or anyone else is qualified to be in the squad by 2022, then they should be included.
No other way.
I SAID THE PROBLEM FROM BEFORE. YOU DONT MAKE A STRONG NATIONAL TEAM WITHOUT ORGANISATION VERY GOOD MANAGER TECHNICAL STAFF CORRECT MIX OF YOUNG AND OLD PLAYERS LEADER OR LEADERS. AND STOP SAYING ARGENTINA DONT HAVE TALENTED YOUNG PLAYERS BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY THING WE HAVE AND ALWAYS HAVE. THE ONLY TEAM THAT HAVE US MUCH AS US IS FRANCE BUT THEY BUT THEM PLAY AND THEY PLAY 3 YEARS KNOW TOGETHER ALL THE OTHER TEAMS ARE THE SAME.
Let’s see without Messi how Argentina performs. If Argentina can qualify for the World Cup 2022 without Messi.
Shut up with your nonsense. Messi kidnapped the team…Messi should stop playing for the national team….WITHOUT MESSI WE ARE NOTHING, WE HAVE VERY FEW WORLD CLASS PLAYERS AND IT IS BECAUSE OF UNGRATEFUL, IMBECILE AND FOOLISH PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT PUT PRESSURE ON THE SELECION!!
I know it’s hard for you to realize this but Argentina >>>>>>>>>>>>> Messi always was and always will be. Argentina was a 2 time world champ before Messi was even born, Argentina won 14 copas, an olympic gold, a confederation cup and 4 youth world cups before Messi even joined the fold.
I am eternally grateful for all of messi’s contributions to the NT but his time with the team is done and time to let the team move ahead instead of being stuck in a state of perpetual reliance on a single player.
@elpipita
thankfully there’s more poople who understand that we must start from scratch.
@elpipita, thats true. We have a great history! But due to the mess at AFA and the lack of infrastructure at bottom level, we have not been producing enough world class for all players.
How many world class goal keepers, centre backs, full backs, defensive mids, attacking mids did we produce in the last decade, ie the Messi era. ie, no world class players except in the attack. In the remaining 8 positions, none. There you have the answer why Messi didn’t win us a world cup.
Look at our GK position. Top 2 GKs play as subs at major clubs. Third GK play at Argentina league. (who later became our first GK).
And look at DM (destroyer)! Primary DM is a veteran legend who had to leave Barca because age had caught up with him and he was great no more. There are two above average – good DMs who are playing in Seville (mostly as sub) and Sporting (again, not a definite starter). There is also a promising youth at Stutgartt (he was never tried, if Sampa had tried him a year ago, .. while I was about to complete that sentence, Lo Celso’s case came to my mind. So even if Sampa had found a great DM. he may still not have played him at the WC).
@malabari
I agree, the AFA and the state of the entire argentine football is a big mess but like I said before that hasn’t stopped the production of talent. I also said that you don’t need world class talent in every position to succeed. Sure world class talent is great but the old adage of ‘the right players rather than simply the best players’ is one that is often right when it comes to sports in general not just football.
Regarding the GK situation, yeah it was dire but that’s not the primary reason why Argentina was humiliated like that but rather an incompetent coach on par with Diego and that’s saying alot!
The DM situation isn’t dire as far as I’m concerned, Asacibar has all the potential in the world and Battaglia is a solid backup.
the b-b situation is solid with the presence of Celso not to mention Correa and Acuna who have both exhibited solid box to box tendencies when called upon.
Paredes is an excellent ragista/deep lying playmaker, Lanzini is a superb AM if he gets his injury situation under control.
Acuna and A.Correa are both excellent lateral midfielders who can be very useful when a 4-4-2 formation is necessary while Cervi, Ocampos, J Correa and Pavon are all excellent wingers; Lautaro has the potential to be an excellent all rounded forward while dybala and icardi are world class strikers.
Defensively Pezzella is a fine CB as is mammana if he (hopefully) recovers from his long term injury. Tagliafico is a solid fullback while I have high hopes for Conti in Benfica.
The future isn’t as gloomy as you all are making it out to be but unless a worthy coach/tactician comes along it will be all for naught.
@pipita
only vintage ’97 seems to be so much talented that I’m sure the future is not gloomy
@gonzalo
class of ’97? which ones?
Ok, let’s say 97-98
Vargas, Ascacibar, Foyth, Nicolas Gonzalez, Cristian Romero, Joaquin Torres, Robertone, Lautaro, Ponce, Joaquin Pereyra,Montiel, Palacios, Colombatto, Caseres, Dominguez, Lodico, Senesi, Zaracho, Alexis MacAllister, Brunetta, Sarrafiore, De La Fuente, Delgadillo, Lisandro Martinez, Andres Lioi, Joel Lopez Pisano, Gonzalo Escobar, Diego Sosa, Cristian Barrios. Some say also Tomas Conechny or Brian Mansilla.
I had seen all them and all they showed something eye-catching.
Dude, the other teams don’t have a Messi either, but guess what, they progressed far beyond what Argentina have accomplished this year. Perennial underachievers England are 90 mins from a final. Imagine that.
Messi will always be one of the best players in history, but I think it is time that coaches build the team first, then decide how to incorporate Messi into it.
There is no need to exclude Messi from Argentina’s immediate future, but it’s time to consider that his inclusion is no longer 100% guaranteed as a definite starter.
Argentina should always be about the collective nation and its players, and ultimately, more than just one single player’s needs, GOAT or not.
The problem isn’t lio himself but rather the mentality that the coaches and the players seem to employ when lio is around i.e. build a team around him and pass him the ball and see what happens and in the end it’s always the same; the midfield is non existent and messi has to go down to the midfield inorder to make something happen all the while the incompetent coaches and players spew out rubbish like “we have to make messi comfortable” or “we have to help messi”. At the end of the day it’s not just the personnel that has to be changed but also the mentality of Argentine football.
What a player he was I hope Argentina produce players like him af course ayala anyone who’s thinking sampoali fault than they have to think again this team has been kidnapped by messi and his friends since 2007 you know why riquelme retired because of messi do you why Marcelo bielse and his students reject argentina because messi and his friends personally I believe sampoali is very good coach if it was up to him he would have left most of the players who went world cup on his stlye of coaching there is no way he would have taken slow players .
Having say that as Argentina fan I have been grateful what messi did for Argentina but I do believe it’s time for him to go afa need to start from zero to build up new team without messi and his friends I will keep otamandi and banage I know most of you wouldn’t agree with me but I believe he is only world class midfielder Argentina have at the moment I know you will Giovanni lo celso trust me he is good but he will learn from banage
Even the xavi and ces fabregas said good things about him
Trust me Argentina will become good again
With out messi Argentina humiliated 6-1 Spain, 4-2 after Aguero injured think twice Argentina with out messi
Shut up with your nonsense. Messi kidnapped the team…Messi should stop playing for the national team….WITHOUT MESSI WE ARE NOTHING, WE HAVE VERY FEW WORLD CLASS PLAYERS AND IT IS BECAUSE OF UNGRATEFUL, IMBECILE AND FOOLISH PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT PUT PRESSURE ON THE SELECION!!
You lose all credit when you spew bullshit lies like Messi kidnapped the team. You have no clue what you’re talking about. You already forget how goal we’re scored when Messi wasnt even on the pitch, and how man games were lost when Messi didn’t even play. You keep spreading nonsense and lies
Mache stopped messi and Aguero for winning title in senior label both won u20 world cup for Argentina as well as player of the tournament but mache politics took Argentina downwards selecting higuain and sidelined lo celso
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